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ArtenXevious
02-29-2012, 07:45 PM
With our recent amazing progress in the current raiding content (Seriously, great job guys!), it has occurred to some of us that we don't really have any outlined rules or regulations regarding either attendance for the raid (primarily, the question of 'who has to sit out this time) and etiquette during a raid. Since we're still working on it, I figured it would be a great idea to get all of your opinions on these subjects here.

I'd also like to remind everyone that the goal is to enjoy yourselves! Raids can be very stressful, especially since most of us are new to raiding and the challenges it presents.

Have fun! Don't Panic! _awesome_

~Raid Attendance~
Unfortunately for us, we're at that perfect number of 85s who want to participate in the 10-man raids but can't yet gather enough for the 25-mans. This means that someone's probably going to have to sit out of the raid. It's nothing personal, and I'm trying to work on a fair way to get everyone a decent amount of raid time without having to boss around.

The way I was looking at it, I think a /roll +/-(bonus) system would work (as long as someone keeps an eye on who gets to be in what raids, which isn't a problem yet and hopefully won't be for a while).

The bonus you're given depends on whether or not you were able to make it online for raids and how many times you've gotten to raid since the last time you sat out.
The way it'll work is, in theory, this:
[spoiler=Roll to Raid Idea:68dymuoy]Imagine we have 15 players. Three tanks, four healers, and eight DPS.

Since it's a 10-man raid, only ten got to go last week and only ten can go this week.

Tank 1 and Tank 2 got to go last week, so they get a -10 to their roll to raid. Tank 3 was available and online last week, but had to sit out because we had too many people. He gets a +10 to his roll.

Tank 1 rolls a 43-10 = 33, Tank 2 rolls a 98-10 = 88, and Tank 3 rolls a 54+10 = 64. Tank 2 and Tank 3 get to go, and Tank 1 sits out.
Next week, Tank 1 gets the +10 and Tank 3 gets a -10, but since Tank 2 went TWO weeks in a row, his bonus is now -20.
Tank 2 still has a chance to get in the next week, but it's much less than the last few weeks.

Still following me? Good~!

Healer 1, Healer 2, and Healer 3 raided last week, and Healer 4 wasn't online last week.
Healer 1, 2, and 3 each get a -10 to their rolls, but Healer 4 doesn't get any bonus since he wasn't online last week.

Healer 1 rolls 55-10 = 45, Healer 2 rolls 77-10=60, Healer 3 rolls 22-10 = 12, and Healer 4 rolls 54. This means Healer 3 has to sit out this week.
Next week, Healer 1 and 3 get -20, Healer 4 gets -10, and Healer 3 gets +10 for being available last week, even if he had to sit out.

I hope you understood that, because here's where it gets interesting.

DPS 1 through 5 got to go last week. DPS 6 and 7 were available, and DPS 8 was offline.
Two weeks ago, DPS 1-3, 6, and 8 got to go, while 4 and 7 were available. DPS 5 was nowhere to be seen.
This means that this week:
DPS 1, 2, and 3 get a -20 to their rolls.
DPS 4 and 5 get a -10 to their rolls.
DPS 6 gets a +10 to his roll.
DPS 7 gets a +20 to her roll.
DPS 8 has no bonus.

Making assumptions to cut text space: DPS 1, 4, 5, 7, and 8 get to go this week.
Next week's bonuses are:
DPS 1: -30
DPS 4, 5: -20
DPS 7, 8: -10
DPS 2, 3, 5: +10
DPS 6: +20

The end goal is that nobody should be so lucky or unlucky to get to +/- 100. Still working on what should happen should Guy X be available and have to sit out four weeks straight but is absent on the fifth.[/spoiler:68dymuoy]
So, there's that.

~Raid Etiquette~
Most of this section is going to be about Raid Leading in general, and when to acquiesce the floor to them.

Last week, a few of us got snippy because we were explaining every fight in detail every time. Here's the thing: With a group like ours that's diverse and not a core raid team, we kind of have to. We can't run on the assumption that everyone knows everything about the fight, so we go over it to make sure. As we cycle more players in and everyone gets used to a fight, we can just do simple explanations as reminders for some of the more important mechanics but we -still go over the fight.-
The goal is to have fun, but it's hard to have fun if we walk into a fight willy-nilly and get our butts handed to us six times in a row.

This weekend I'm going to do a double-ready check system before each fight to help in the matter. The first ready check is to determine who all knows and understands the fight. If everyone selects 'Ready' we can just do the quick explanation and get right on to the winning. If someone selects 'Not Ready' we'll go over the whole fight and answer any questions.
I'll announce this intent into Vent when it happens, so don't worry to hard about what each ready check means.
The second ready check just means it's-a murderin' time. _awesome_

And remember, if the Raid Leaders are trying to explain a portion of the fight, please hold your comments until the end. Getting four different statements of, 'this is how the fight REALLY goes' in the -middle- of an explanation just makes it more difficult for ANYONE to get a grasp of the fight.

Next up is post-kill loot discussion.
Master Loot is kind of a pain, but I can see why some people might want it on. Etiquette for Master Loot goes like this:
1) Boss is killed, Raid Leader posts a link to the items that dropped into the Raid Chat (probably as a Raid Warning to make sure everyone knows it's in the chat.
2) Everyone stops chatting now. Everyone. The only people typing should be the ones who intend to roll for the items.
3) Raid Leader will then announce to Raid as a Raid Warning: "ROLL FOR [Loot Drop X]"
4) Players who need [Loot Drop X] will /roll for it. Highest roll wins. If you don't need it for the spec that you're currently in the raid for, ASK BEFORE YOU ROLL. If a healing trinket drops while you're in DPS and you roll against someone who is currently healing, some people might take offense (and in my opinion, rightly so).
5) Repeat steps 3 and 4 until all items are distributed.
6) Regular chatting may recommence.

If we have the usual in-game Need or Greed roll set up, there's a simpler solution in an all-guildie group: DBADB.
It stands for: "Don't Be A D-Bag." NOBODY should be rolling Disenchant on ANY of the gear. IF YOU DON'T NEED THE ITEM, PASS ON IT INSTEAD. Special Exception for our Enchanters, who should be rolling Greed on every item just in case everyone passes so it can get one final 'Anyone want it for Off-Spec?' before he disenchants it for the GBank.




Thanks for reading! I know it's a wall of text, but this is all stuff that needs to be gone over eventually. Please, discuss these topics so we get an idea of what your viewpoint is, and remember: The most important thing is that you're having fun. :thumbs:

EDIT: Ha ha! Already I done goofed. None of this is set in stone yet, except maybe the 'stop typing when the loot rolls are going on.' Just trying to preemptively cover our bases with discussion. ;D

GamingCthulhu
02-29-2012, 08:29 PM
Not saying you have a bad idea Arten not at all just stating my dislike of the system as it rewards luck over actual commitment to helping the raid and adds tons of paper work that becomes something that could cause conflict in the end when people start complaining about how such and such was or wasn't there last week or they went on an alt to fill a need but this week going on a character who they are maining now so their modifier should be changed to such and such.

Additionally some people may have to plan their entire evening around getting things ready to raid on a given day and then finding out at raid time you are sitting cause you rolled a 1 for the 4th week in a row would be just complete crap.

Personally I feel that people who are showing up week after week should be given priority as they have been giving their time to help the guild progress and forcing them to sit just cause of a random roll just puts a bad taste in my mouth and it does nothing to help the other issues we have with raid comp being skewed heavy to Druid and Shaman on nearly every raid.

To be honest I don't see why we can't use a system where those who raided the week before and signed for the raid are given priority for the raid and then when their are extras we just ask if anyone wants to sit. If not it's up to the officers to chose who sits and takes a note of it. The next week the same system is used with the officers ensuring anyone who sat the previous week would be added on the current week.

However to make this fair I would also implement a specific rule regarding officers. For every 3 week of having to sit somebody a Officer would have to sit to ensure that the officers are being part of the rotation as well.

Also of note is that people who don't show up on time for a raid can not be expected to be given priority to the next weeks raid because we have a serious issue with taking way to long to get a raid started. If the raid start time is 8:30 we should not be starting at 9:30 because people couldn't take it upon themselves to get flasks/enchants/gems and such prior to the raid.. everyone had all week to get what they needed and if they aren't taking the 15 mins it might take the days leading up to the raid to get going then they are just hindering the raid and not helping as the later we start the fewer attempts we get.

Additionally setting a specific end time to ensure people are available the entire raid time. Nothing is more frustrating then hearing one more pull and I have to go over and over again. If we start at 8:30 set and end time of 11:30 or so and people who can't attend for the full time should be expected to sit because we should be giving those that will be there for the full time their chance.


Anyways just my thoughts and I know I ramble but figured get them out while they were fresh.

Ruju
03-01-2012, 01:45 AM
I would just like to point out that as long as the raids continue to start at 8:30 (9:30 my time) I will always be showing up late, because I do not get off work UNTIL 9:30 on weekends. The sad, sad truth.

I also don't really like the roll idea for switching people out. It might be needed soon because we do have a lot of new lvl 85s coming up, but right now we usually only have one or two extra people, and it's mostly dps concern.

For example, Nitram sat out last time, so I think he should definitely be in the next one. Sure the roll idea gives him an extra advantage, but he still has the chance to sit out again, which I think is poopy.

We just need to get enough people so we can just do two groups of raids <3

:thumbs:

Kairamek
03-01-2012, 07:16 PM
Last week, a few of us got snippy because we were explaining every fight in detail every time. Here's the thing: With a group like ours that's diverse and not a core raid team, we kind of have to. We can't run on the assumption that everyone knows everything about the fight, so we go over it to make sure. As we cycle more players in and everyone gets used to a fight, we can just do simple explanations as reminders for some of the more important mechanics but we -still go over the fight.-
The goal is to have fun, but it's hard to have fun if we walk into a fight willy-nilly and get our butts handed to us six times in a row.

You also have to watch for over thinking. Every raiding guild I have been in overthought and overexplained everything. I took us three months to clear Patchwork because of it. Three months. Every time we wiped we'd reanalize and readjust. That's a simple gearcheck fight. If you fail, you reassemble, rebuff, and go again. But everytime they were changing out healers, changing rotation, when do lust? who should be beaconed? should melee step in the slime so they don't soak a hateful and get one shot? blah blah blah. We didn't kill Kel'Thuzzad until after coming back with Ulduar gear.

That is not something I plan to allow. I've been through it so many times and in so many forms I know over-thinking when I hear it. I commit to preventing us from suffering Paralasis thorugh Analysis. I appologize for being so ham-fisted about it last week, I will bring that concern to the groups attention in a nicer way. That should be easier now that you know what where I'm coming from. And before anyone disagress, we had gone from reviewing the fight to asking 'what ifs' and suggesting alternate senarios before trying the fight. I offer the fact we immediatly stopped debating tactics after I called it out and oneshot the boss without breaking a sweat as proof of my point.

The appropriate timing for that kind of analysis is after the raid is over once we have data. Kind of like what happened Saturday. Ultraxion smashed us around for a while and afterwards several of us viewed the log data and read up some more to build a new plan. A great brainstorming session, but not really apropriate DURING the raid, and certainly not before we've at least tried once.

As for over-explaining, flat fact is we don't all need to know every mechanic. It crams to much into the heads of each player and causes us to become confused when things happen. The reason I asked about the slimes was a legit question. With about a dozen combos of 2 surviving slimes it will be too much information. But it did change something in the fight mechanics so we really did need to know. The fact I asked was proof we needed to review it.


To be honest I don't see why we can't use a system where those who raided the week before and signed for the raid are given priority for the raid and then when their are extras we just ask if anyone wants to sit. If not it's up to the officers to chose who sits and takes a note of it. The next week the same system is used with the officers ensuring anyone who sat the previous week would be added on the current week.

I have to agree with Cthulu on this one (dang that's weird to type). Most of us are adults and willing to take one for the team. Nitrum passed last week and so odds are I'll pass this week unless there is an urgent need for me. Not that I don't want to play, but fair is fair.

The system you propose leads us to one of two possible bad senarios. Either we are super fair and the winning rollers get to go, causing us to have a problem of raid composition and possibly a faiilure level loss of DPS, or we have to start showing favoratism to certain players who are 'better' than the others. Cause I assure if you Cthulu, WowGamer, Altore, and Ruju (or just three of them honstly) loose the roll, we won't have the DPS to pull it off. Two of those fights we just pulled off by the skin of our teeth. Subbing 2 30+k dps for a 25k dps would have been failure.

Something else I forgot, that kind of random switching will also serve to weaken us. Having a dedicated group getting upgraded makes a strong base so no matter who we bring we will win.

Blaumagier
03-02-2012, 03:15 AM
I realize I don't play with you all, but I thought I'd offer a neutral opinion - giving someone priority on an item because they are currently playing that spec over someone who has that spec but isn't currently playing it is unfair. On Final Fantasy XI, I was a level 75 White Mage, Black Mage, and Blue Mage. Blue Mage was my main, but as a DPS and secondary buffer, it wasn't need as much as Black Mages and White Mages, so I often played White or Black for the good of the group. I would've been very irate if I had to pass on something for my Blue Mage in return for helping them out in a pinch. If someone has the appropriate level 85 for something, unless the item is untradeable (not sure how much of that this game has) then they should have just as much right to something as anyone else, unless they refuse to play that spec when requested. Just my two cents.

[ Post made via Android ]

Kairamek
03-02-2012, 08:01 AM
Most guilds do a Declare Your Spec thing. The challenge in our case is that two of our healers are almost always healers in the raid but their declared main spec is melee dps. This causes a gear conflict in that one of them shares loot with abother dps for the declaired main spec, and the other shares loot wwithfour dps. Three from the healing offspec and one with the melee main spec.

Um... we better fogure out how to handle that part asap.

[ Post made via Android ]

ArtenXevious
03-02-2012, 01:42 PM
About the loot drops: I honestly don't care whether or not it goes to an offspec. I'm not picky. I just like knowing if it'll make our next fights in the raid much simpler. I suppose I mistyped that bit and should have said 'if it's for your offspec, let us know.' I figure it's gonna get to the point where we've run Morchok so many times that offspec drops are the only things that don't get DE'd.

However, if there's no reason for you to have it (i.e. you're a mail healer and it's a cloth item) then it only makes sense to pass so someone else who might actually need it for really reals can have it. Although that fits right back into DBADB. :D

It's looking like we'll just have discussions in the officer's chat or whatever to determine who sits. There's only little thing with officer's sitting out though; it's not that I have a problem sitting out (I don't, there are other things I could be doing and while I enjoy raids I don't mind giving someone else my seat from time to time), it's that three out of our four tanks and three out of our four healers are officers. It's a little difficult to sit us out currently, is all. Need more tanks and more heals. It's kind of scary that we have 147 people in our guild and only 8 of them are Lv.85 tanks/heals. o~O